In the Wake of Vatican II: Is the Conciliar Church still Roman Catholic?: Is it Still Necessary/Preferrable to be Roman Catholic?

Sunday, May 4, 2008

Is it Still Necessary/Preferrable to be Roman Catholic?

If the “means of grace” are present in the schismatic and heretical churches i.e. the Orthodox Church and those arising out of the Protestant Reformation and have within them the means of salvation, why would anyone bother to become or remain a Roman Catholic given that Catholicism is much more demanding than any of the other “Christian” religions. For example, some of the text of Unitatis Redintegratio e.g. no. 3, p. 4 below;

"It follows that the separated churches and comminities as such, though we believe they suffer from the defects already mentioned, have been by no means deprived of significance and importance in the mystery of salvation. For the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of Salvation which derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Catholic Church..."

seems more than a bit ambiguous in light of pre-conciliar language regarding the necessity to be baptized member in good standing (in a state of grace) of the Roman Catholic Church under the direction of the Roman Pontiff in order to be saved.

Moreover it seems intuitively obvious and logically irrefutable that the temporal relationship to the altered (Vatican II induced) ecclesiology with regard to Extra-Ecclesium Nulla Sullus (no salvation outside the Roman Catholic Church) and the severe loss of Priests and members of the various orders of religious post 1965 is one of cause and effect. If it is no longer necessary to be a Catholic “Christian” why should anyone subject themselves to the restrictions which accompany the Catholic Priesthood and Religious life? Why not simply be a Catholic lay person or a non-Catholic “Christian?” Could this be the reason why so many Priests and Religious abandoned their vows?

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What/Where is the Roman Catholic Church?

Dogmas of the Roman Catholic Church

For a detailed list of the Dogmas of the Catholic Church see THIS...

Roman Catholic Church Dogmas are the unadulterated traditional teachings which must be believed by all Roman Catholics who wish to uphold the entire Gospel of Christ as faithfully handed down by the Apostles and Church Fathers. It is absolutely necessary to give complete assent of the Intellect and Will to these doctrines. The conciliar church has promulgated teachings which either explicitly or implicitly reject many of these perennial dogmas.

Heresies of the Roman Catholic Church

For an outline and discussion of some of the more prominent heretical views which developed in the Roman Catholic Church, see THIS...

Readers may ask why a layman would pose the kind of questions which are found on this site. The sad truth is that those whose job it is to protect the sheep from ravenous wolves have failed grievously in their responsibility.

Many of the Documents of Vatican II are ambigous at the least and heretical at the worst. With the exception of the Abbe de Nantes decades ago, no Traditional Priest, Bishop or Catholic Theologian has been willing to formally charge the Vatican with schism, apostasy or invalidly changing the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass in the wake of the Second Vatican Council.

None have even asked how it is possible that a Pope or Ecumenical Council could alter in any way the Traditional Latin Mass of Pope St. Pius V who in Quo Primum tempore made the mass permanent and who commanded that it never be changed.

Now after over 4 decades of conciliar chaos, the negative fruits are apparent to all who have eyes to see and the will to confront what can no longer be denied.

If you find this site helpful, maddening, shocking and or controversial, please ask your friends and acquaintances to check it out.

PREACH NO OTHER GOSPEL

Galatians 1: 6-9

⁶I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel ⁷which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. ⁸But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! ⁹As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!

Isaiah 5: 20

²⁰ Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter.

Jude 17-19

¹⁷But, dear friends, remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ foretold. ¹⁸They said to you, "In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires." ¹⁹These are the men who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit.

Matthew 7: 15-16

¹⁵Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. ¹⁶By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?

Matthew 12: 34

³⁴You brood of vipers, how can you who are evil say anything good? For out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks.

2 Thessalonians 2: 15

"So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter."

1 John 2: 20-26

²⁰But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth. ²¹I do not write to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it and because no lie comes from the truth. ²²Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the Antichrist—he denies the Father and the Son. ²³No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

²⁴See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. ²⁵And this is what he promised us—even eternal life.

²⁶I am writing these things to you about those who are trying to lead you astray. ²⁷As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit—just as it has taught you, remain in him.

1 John 4: 1-3

¹Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. ²This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, ³but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.

2 John 7, 10

⁷For many deceivers have gone out into the world, men who will not acknowledge the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh; such a one is the deceiver and the Antichrist...If any one come to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him into the house or give him any greetings; for he who greets him shares his wicked works.

2 Tim. 3: 1-9

¹But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. ²People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, ³without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, ⁴treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God— ⁵having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with them.

⁶They are the kind who worm their way into homes and gain control over weak-willed women, who are loaded down with sins and are swayed by all kinds of evil desires, ⁷always learning but never able to acknowledge the truth. ⁸Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so also these men oppose the truth—men of depraved minds, who, as far as the faith is concerned, are rejected. ⁹But they will not get very far because, as in the case of those men, their folly will be clear to everyone.

Luke 18: 8

... Nevertheless, when the Son of man comes, will he find faith on earth?

Titus 3: 10-11

¹⁰As for a man who is factious (heretical), after admonishing him once or twice, have nothing more to do with him,¹¹Knowing that such a person is subverted and sinful, he is self-condemned.

2 Peter 2: 1-3; 11-19

¹But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. ²Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. ³In their greed these teachers will exploit you with false words. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping...

...Bold and arrogant, these men are not afraid to slander celestial beings; ¹¹yet even angels, although they are stronger and more powerful, do not bring slanderous accusations against such beings in the presence of the Lord. ¹²But these men blaspheme in matters they do not understand. They are like brute beasts, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like beasts they too will perish.

¹³They will be paid back with harm for the harm they have done. Their idea of pleasure is to carouse in broad daylight. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their pleasures while they feast with you. ¹⁴With eyes full of adultery, they never stop sinning; they seduce the unstable; they are experts in greed—an accursed brood! ¹⁵They have left the straight way and wandered off to follow the way of Balaam son of Beor, who loved the wages of wickedness. ¹⁶But he was rebuked for his wrongdoing by a donkey—a beast without speech—who spoke with a man's voice and restrained the prophet's madness.

¹⁷These men are springs without water and mists driven by a storm. Blackest darkness is reserved for them. ¹⁸For they mouth empty, boastful words and, by appealing to the lustful desires of sinful human nature, they entice people who are just escaping from those who live in error. ¹⁹They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves of depravity—for a man is a slave to whatever has mastered him.

2 Peter 3: 3, 10-15, 17-18

³First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires...

¹⁰But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare.

¹¹Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives ¹²as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. ¹³But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, the home of righteousness.

¹⁴So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him. ¹⁵Bear in mind that our Lord's patience means salvation...

¹⁷Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position. ¹⁸But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever! Amen.

2 Corinthians 6: 14-16;

¹⁴Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness? ¹⁵What harmony is there between Christ and Belial? What does a believer have in common with an unbeliever? ¹⁶What agreement is there between the temple of God and idols? For we are the temple of the living God. As God has said: "I will live with them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be my people."

2 Corinthians 11: 3-4

³But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent's cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ. ⁴For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough...

2 Corinthians 13: 5-8, 11

⁵Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you—unless, of course, you fail the test? ⁶And I trust that you will discover that we have not failed the test. ⁷Now we pray to God that you will not do anything wrong. Not that people will see that we have stood the test but that you will do what is right even though we may seem to have failed. ⁸For we cannot do anything against the truth, but only for the truth.

¹¹Finally, brothers, good-by. Aim for perfection, listen to my appeal, be of one mind, live in peace. And the God of love and peace will be with you.

SOME TROUBLING QUESTIONS

* If the Roman Catholic Church was correct in what it taught and the way it worshiped prior to 1962 how is it possible for the conciliar church to be correct now since the teachings of each are contradictory in so many areas? Does this not necessarily contradict first principles of being specifically the "law of non-contradiction."?

* If the Roman Catholic church was incorrect prior to 1962 what possible argument can establish that the conciliar church or any other for that matter is correct now?

* Why was the extensive preparation for the Second Vatican Council by the Preparatory Commission simply abandoned in favor of a totally unorthodox set of innovations many of which had been previously condemned as heretical?

* Why did John XXIII not comply with the legal rules of the Council he called and in so doing allow only a simple majority to defeat the preparatory scheme which had been developed over a three year period?

* Why did John XXIII rehabilitate neo-modernist heresiarchs such as Hans Kung, Ives Congar, and Dominque Marie Chenu the basis of whose Modernist/neo-Modernist teaching had been condemned by St. Pius X in Pascendi Dominici gregis as "the synthesis of all errors/heresies" by inviting them to participate as experts (Periti) for the Council?

*Why did the conciliar Popes beginning with John XXIII refuse to take the Papal oath against Modernism? Could it be that they were Neo-Modernist sympathizer's who fully intended to depart from Traditional orthodox Roman Catholicism?

* Tragically isn't the conciliar church a totally new entity not simply a reform/updating of the Holy Roman Catholic Church which Jesus Christ instituted? Is it not the conciliar church which has separated itself from the Church founded by Christ? Are not those who adhere to the Traditional Roman Catholic faith the legitimate members of the Body of Christ albeit a much smaller remnant?

* Is the conciliar church not through its own volition outside the body of Christ (Conciliar teaching holds that the Roman Catholic Church "subsists in" the larger "Church of Christ", members of which are the "people of God" not the "body of Christ")?

* How can the conciliar church be Roman Catholic if it does not believe what members of the Church Triumphant/Communion of Saints (certain members of the body of Christ) believed for 2 millennia?

*The concilior church in departing from Sacred Tradition teaches the doctrine of religious freedom. Why then does it refuse Traditional Catholics the right to practice pre-Vatican II Roman Catholicism including attending the Tridentine Mass of Pope St. Pius V?

* Isn't the gravity of the destruction of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and the Traditional Roman Catholic Church so great as to establish that it was done with malice aforethought? Are not the greatest lies the most difficult to detect because they are thought to be incredible?

* Of what possible use is a religion that is constantly subject to change? How can we be certain that what we believe today will be valid tomorrow if what Catholics believed for 19 centuries is no longer valid according to the conciliar church?

These and many more questions from Traditional Catholics deserve an honest answer from the Vatican. They cannot in good conscience be dismissed a-priori since it is the conciliar church that has markedly deviated from the Roman Catholic Church of Christ both in faith and praxis.

TRADITIONAL CATHOLICISM AND THE CONCILIAR CHURCH

This site attempts to draw attention to the many contradictions which exist between the conciliar Church and the pre-Vatican II Roman Catholic Church. There are "3" areas in which these contradictions are evident, in the Churches:

Worship (Cult)
Doctrine (Creed)
Morality (Code)

There seems to be an undeniable cause-effect relationship between the calling of the Second Vatican Council by John XXIII including its aftermath and the now 5 decade long profound destruction of the Roman Catholic Church of record whose almost total demolition represents an incontrovertible fact. In its place we find the conciliar church.

The contrasts between the conciliar church and the historic Roman Catholic Church are so severe as to make one wonder whether we are experiencing the Apostasy referred to in Sacred Scripture e.g. 2 Thes. 2: 2-3, Luke 18:8, one of multiple signs (e.g. the preaching of the Gospel throughout the entire earth, wars, rumors of wars, earthquakes, famines, pestilences, the appearance of the anti-Christ, the return of Elijah the Prophet, the conversion of the Jews) which are all to precede the return of our Lord Jesus Christ in Glory at the end of time. Given the circumstances it would seem foolhardy to discount the possibility that the universal Apostasy has already begun. Serious Catholics are duty bound to at least consider the possibility.

If in fact the conciliar church preaches a different Gospel (Galatians 1: 6-9), one which is fundamentally irreconcilable with the Traditional Roman Catholic Church of Jesus Christ, the implications are indeed grave. In such a circumstance a small remnant of Traditional Catholics might need to maintain the orthodox Catholic faith until either the Roman Catholic Church is restored or Christ returns in glory.

As shocking as these thoughts may be, the circumstances of the past 50 years clearly establish that the question--of whether Vatican II represents a complete departure from the almost 2000 year old Roman Catholic Church--needs to be asked and answered. At this site the question is posed and considered. God help us.

LEX ORENDI, LEX CREDENDI

The law of prayer is the law of belief or, we believe the way we pray. What does the Novus Ordo Missae imply about what the conciliar church believes? It clearly does not intend to unambiguously present the teaching of the Council of Trent that at the consecration the bread and wine are transubstantiated into the body, blood, soul and divinity of Jesus Christ.

The Novus Ordo makes clear that it is a celebration or a memorial of the Last Supper not a propitiatory sacrifice in which Jesus Christ the spotless victim is presented to God the Father by the Priest acting in Persona Christi. Therefore, the traditional description, "the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass" is no longer used and for good reason.

In the Novus Ordo Missae instead of offering our Lord Jesus Christ, there is an exchange of gifts in which we offer God the Father the gifts of human hands which is similar to the offering made to God by the ancient Hebrews who utilized animal sacrifice.

Christ died on the Cross of Calvary and was bodily resurrected from the dead and ascended into heaven. Since then, all animal sacrifice has ceased. In its place the Roman Catholic Church for 19 centuries re-presented that is, offered the divine victim Jesus Christ at every Mass throughout the world in an extra-space/time dimensional way. Not now. Why has this been changed?

My Answer

Because the conciliar church in what appears to be an unprecedented act of hubris decided to abrogate The Tridentine Latin Mass which St. Pius V (Quo Primum Tempore) made permanent in order to replace it with an ecumenical (Cranmerian/Protestant) communion service. Catholics who simply wish to practice the Traditional faith should not be accused of heresy or apostacy for asking the question and postulating the only logical answer they can think of.

MODERN PHILOSOPHY POISONED THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH

It is undeniable--if one is willing to consider the evidence--that the Roman Catholic Church has been poisoned by the conciliar churches embracing of modern philosophy especially the logically bankrupt concept of "Historicism"-- a self-referentially absurd theory which holds that the doctrinal pronouncements of a given period in the Church are only applicable to the time in which they were promulgated. There is no evidence that this concept was ever intended by the 12 Apostles or early Church Fathers. They would have know best what Christ intended.

HISTORICISM totally destroys doctrine/dogma there being no immutable transcendent and divine revelatory truths for the Church to uphold. In its acceptance of Historicism, the conciliar church has admitted that it no longer has any doctrinal foundation. As a result virtually every doctrine/dogma which was held by the pre-Vatican II Roman Catholic Church has been either adulterated or destroyed.

The conciliar church appear to represent a hallowed out and teetering edifice which has retained the external facade of Roman Catholicism but in which the critical supporting structure has been destroyed. It exists more in appearance than in reality due to the conciliar attempt to harmonize and unify contradictory belief systems

MORE...

Recommended Works

Amerio, Romano. Iota Unum: A Study of Changes in the Catholic Church in the 21st Century,(translated from the 2nd Italian Edition by Fr. John P. Parsons) (Kansas City: Sarto House, 1996).

DuPont, Yves. Catholic Prophecy: The Coming Chastisement, (Rockford Ill.: Tan Books and Publishers Inc. 1973).

Fahey, Fr. Denis. The Mystical Body of Christ in the Modern World. (Dublin: Regina Publications, 1964).

Gibson, Hutton. Is the Pope Catholic: Paul VI's Legacy: Catholicism, (Albury, NSW: Renwick Pride Pty. Ltd., 1988) available on-line HERE...

Guirmaraes, Atila Sinke. In the Murky Waters of Vatican II. (Los Angeles, Tradition in Action Inc., 2004), may be purchased HERE...

Guirmaraes, Atila Sinke. Vatican II, Homosexuality & Pedophilia. (Los Angeles, Tradition in Action Inc., 2004), may be purchased HERE...

Jones, E. Michael. Libido Dominandi: Sexual Liberation and Political Control, (New York: St, Augustine Press, 2000), may be ordered HERE...

Kramer, Father Paul. The Devil's Final Battle: How the Current Rejection of the Message of Fatima causes the Present Crisis in the Church and the World, First Edition (Buffalo, N.Y.: Good Counsel Publications for The Missionary Association, 2002), available HERE....

Likoudis, Paul A. Amchurch Comes Out: The U.S. Bishops, Pedophile Scandals and the Homosexual Agenda, (Petersburg, Illinois: Roman Catholic Faithful Inc. 2002).

Manning, Henry Edward Cardinal . The Pope and the Antichrist: The Present Crisis of the Holy See Tested by Prophecy, (Saint Croix du Mont, France: Tradibooks, 2007).

Omlor, Patrick Henry. The Robber Church. (Reno Nevada: Athanasius Press, 1969), available on-line HERE...

Rose, Michael S. Goodbye! Good Men: How Catholic Seminaries Turned Away Two Generations of Vocations From the Priesthood, (Cincinnati: Aquinas Publishing Ltd., 2002).

Wallace, William A. The Modeling of Nature: Philosophy of Science and Philosophy of Nature in Synthesis, (Washington D.C.: Catholic University of America Press, 1996).

Wallace O P, William A. The Elements of Philosophy: A Compendium for Philosophers and Theologians, (New York: Alba House, 1977).

Wathen, O. S. J. Fr. James F. The Great Sacrilege. (Tan Books Inc. 1971) available on-line HERE...

Wiltgen, Fr. Ralph M. SVD. The Rhine Flows into the Tiber: A History of Vatican II, (Charlotte, N.C.: Tan Books and Publishers, 1967).

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